Transcription of interview about Cyber-Sicherheitsrat Deutschland and the NLP generated press reports

Live-Interview von Hans-Wilhelm Dünn bei WELT TV am 10. Oktober 2022

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Bei mir im Studio begrüße ich jetzt Hans-Willi im Dönem Präsidenten vom vor ein Cyber-Sicherheitsrat Deutschland-EV. Freut mich sehr über Ihren Besuch. Das hoffe ich unternehmen. Protéon war bisher Mitglied des Cyber-Sicherheitsrates Deutschland nun der Ausschluss. Was unterrate die Gründe für? 

Ja, wir sind von investigativjournalisten darauf aufmerksam gemacht worden, dass es hier Verdachtspfälle gibt, dass eventuell Backdoors in Software bestehen, die vielleicht sogar an den russischen Staat weitergeleitet werden. Das können wir nicht derzeit komplett verifizieren. Wir sind aber dann am 30. 9. sofort aktiv geworden und haben einen Prüfungsverfahren eingeleitet und haben, weil wir das ernst nehmen, gesagt. Wir wollen hier als Cyber-Sicherheitsrat, der die Aufgabe hat, kritische Infrastrukturen Unternehmen, Organisationen zu schützen, nichts falsch machen und wollen hier direkt agieren und haben heute das Mitglied ausgeschlossen aus dem Verein Cyber-Sicherheitsvertrag der Deutschland-EV, einfach um alle möglichen Eventualitäten auszuschließen, was aber auch heißt, dass die Verdächtigung, die hier im Raum stehen, natürlich dann auch jetzt weiterhin geprüft werden müssen, inwiefern auch hier überhaupt Schaden beispielsweise entstehen konnte, weil dieses Mitglied natürlich bei uns auch nicht aktiver, das ist zwei Veranstaltungen teilgenommen unter anderem bei der Jubiläumsfeier, dem 10. Jubiläum sowie einer E-Heldsabsetzung, wir haben sonst keinerlei Projekte oder Kontakte mit diesem Mitglied, das heißt also hier bestand auch nie in irgendeiner Form auf dieser Austauschplattform, die Gefahr, dass dort irgendwas passieren könnte. Aber die Großvater in die Überraschung, dass es da diesen Verdacht gibt, sind sie da aus einen Wolken gefallen und hatten sie da Schoen, was so im Hinterkopf war, und gesagt, ne, das passt schon. Nein, es ist grundsätzlich so, dass sie immer bei Software das Problem haben, dass sie in diese Codearchitektur direkt hineinschauen können, hinzukommt, dass sie teilweise natürlich auch komplexe Gesellschaftsrechtliche Strukturen haben, die wir als Verein, der keine Behörde ist, der auch im Endeffekt nicht die Mechanismen hat, um beispielsweise tiefgreifende Recherchen vorzunehmen, wie beispielsweise Nachrichtendienste, das würde mich auch in dem Kontext interessieren, weil wir ja auch jetzt in der gesellschaftspolitischen Debatte sehen, dass es vielleicht Sinn macht, wenn diese Dienste auch Vereinigungen wieder unseren vielleicht Tipps geben, das können wir als Verein aber nicht darstellen, wir müssen im Endeffekt bei der deutschen GmbH erst mal davon ausgehen, dass sie das tun, was sie sagen. Reichtern dieser Ausschluss jetzt aus oder wird es dann auf weitere Konsequenzen geben? Schauen Sie noch genauer hin, haben Sie da vielleicht in einen oder anderen jetzt besonders überbekommen? Das ist anders sicherlich für viele Organisationen noch andere Vereine genauer hinzukucken. Wir werden das als Cyber-Sicherheitsgrad Deutschland EVT tun, wir werden klare Prüfkriterien für zukünftige Neuaufnahmen, aber wir werden natürlich auch ganz genau und jetzt noch mal anschauen, wie wir denn in der Mitgliedschaft und wo gibt es eventuell Bedarf, da auch genauer hinzuschauen. Welche Rolle nimmt Ahne Schömbum noch einem Cyber-Sicherheitsrat? Als Festretmer hatten Sie ja kürzlich eingeladen, vor knapp 4 Wochen war das mein Informationszufolk? Ja, das war eine Einladung an Ahne Schömbum, die er natürlich auch erst mal prüfen lassen müsste. Das ist ja nicht so, dass er da mal nach Feierabend, auf dem Feierabend, die er vorbei kommt und reden hält, sondern so was wird geprüft und freigegeben über einen zuständigen Staatssekretär Richter, also das Bundesinnenministerium prüft so etwas über ein sehr, sehr lange. Da können Sie teilweise Wochen auch in diesem Fall warten. Die ist die dann sagen, dass es okay er darf, dort sprechen. Und ich vermute mal, wenn die dort bedenken gehabt hätten, hätten Sie diese Freigabe auch nicht erteilt. Wie bewerten Sie die politische Arbeit und Entscheidungsfreudigkeit vom Bundesinnministerin Nancy Faeser in dieser Kauser? Wir haben gerade eine Agenda, Cyber-Sicherheit, der Name sagt schon Agenda, das ist keine Strategie, der sie sein vorhaben. Ich glaube, wir hätten von einer neuen Regierung dort mehr erwarten können. Es ist sicherlich mehr steht dort jetzt drin, als wir zuvor jemals hatten. Aber fakt es auch, dass wir zu wenig tun und wir sehen jetzt auch gerade bei dieser möglichen Entscheidung, auch jetzt hier einen BSI Präsident in diesem Kontext abzusetzen, hat schon politisch im Geschmäck, dass man sozusagen, das ist nicht das erste Mal, dass man nach einem Regierungswechsel spitzen beamte, dann auf einmal eine andere vielleicht auch bei Teilzugüerigkeit absetzt. Sie vielleicht einen sehr guten Job gemacht haben, weil sie hier übrigens auch gemacht hat. Man kann die Übung es auch nicht vorwerfen, dass er mit Panthelion in irgendeiner Form Kontakt haben konnte. Sie sind seit Juni 2020 Mitglied, das heißt, also auch hier kann man dem BSI Präsidenten wirklich keinen Vorwurf machen. Und ich vermute leider, dass die ganze Sache hier weniger fachlich, sondern eher politisch nochensiert ist und ich hätte mir gewünscht, dass man hier eine politische Entscheidung trifft, anstatt jetzt hier zu einem Synenbock zu suchen, der jetzt der BSI Präsident sein soll, der wirklich unverschuldet jetzt in dieser Situation ist. Rün, lassen Sie uns etwas hineinschauen in das Thema Cyber-Sicherheit, ganz konkret, welchen Einfluss hat Russland auch jetzt noch? Russland hat natürlich genauso, wie das im globalen Kontext ist, insofern sie natürlich die Fähigkeiten, wir sagen immer diese Asylbetrie, also relativ unbeder, und dass man es bemerkt in die Systeme zu infiltrieren. Das wird jetzt passieren, das wird vermehrt viele Nadelstiche geben. Russland wird das sicherlich jetzt auch nutzen, weil man hier sehr verdeckt großen Schaden anrichten kann. Für uns Sie den Ausschließend, dass die russischen Geheimdienste drin sind in den deutschen Systemen, dass es nicht nur bei diesen Nadelstichen bleibt, die ja auch sehr schmerzhaft sind. Da muss man ganz klar sagen. Wir haben seit Jahren auch als Cyber-Sicherheitsrat Deutschland immer wieder davor gewarnt, immer wieder auch für Russland gewarnt, um gesagt, die Trainieren in unseren Systemen. Und das ist so. Wir haben kritische Infrastrukturen, denken Sie an die Tausend Stadtberg in Deutschland, die 2000 Krankenhäuser, die sind hochanfällig. Und das ist natürlich ein tolles Einfallstor für ausländliche Dienst, und natürlich auch den russischen Aggressor. Dann vielleicht auch was die Berichterstattung angeht. Der Medien und die Wahrnehmung der Öffentlichkeit. Wie viel Transparenz verträgt eigentlich das Thema Cyber-Sicherheit? Wie kann man jetzt auch vertrauen, zurückgewinnen, ohne sich selbst zu schaden oder den Vormanten zu schaden? Das ist ein sehr, sehr sensitives Thema. Weil hier geht es immer um sehr, sehr viel. Hier geht es auch um Menschen. Ja, das ist letzten Endesgie reden wir von Systemen, wo Menschen hinter sitzen. Und da geht es um Intelligen sagen wir immer. Also auch Nachrichten, Dienstliche, Informationen, beispielsweise, wie gepfickt sind mit Unternehmen, mit verschiedenen Akteuren. Und das ist ein nicht sehr klare Spiel, sage ich immer. Und das machen sich natürlich gerade diese Angreife auch zu nutzen, weil sie das genau wissen, dass es der einen Seite halt nicht die Koordinierung gibt. Und in Deutschland sehen wir ja auch die Vielfalt an verschiedenen Behörden und Zuständigkeiten. Sagt Hans Willi M. Dünnen, der Präsident des Cyber-Sicherheitsrat Deutschland im VV. Vielen Dank für das Gespräch.......

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At my studio, I now welcome Hans-Willi, the President of the Cyber Security Council of Germany-EV. I'm very pleased to have you visit. I hope to make this happen. Protéon was previously a member of the Cyber Security Council of Germany, but is now excluded. What are the reasons for this? Yes, we were made aware by investigative journalists that there are suspicion cases here that there may be backdoors in software that may even be forwarded to the Russian state. We cannot verify this completely at the moment. But then, on September 30th, we immediately became active and initiated a review process. And because we take this seriously, we said that we want to act directly here as the Cyber Security Council, which has the task of protecting critical infrastructure for companies and organizations, and not make any mistakes. And today we excluded the member from the Association of the Cyber Security Pact of Germany-EV, simply to exclude all possible eventualities. But this also means that the suspicion that is hanging in the air must of course now be further investigated in order to clarify to what extent damage could have occurred here, for example, because this member also did not take part in any active projects or contacts with us, which means that there was never any danger on this exchange platform that something could happen. But the grandfather was very surprised that there was this suspicion and he was shocked that there might be something like this going on in the background. And he said, no, that's not right. No, the general problem with software is that you cannot directly look into this code architecture. In addition, they often have complex legal structures that we as an association, which is not a authority and in the end does not have the mechanisms to carry out in-depth research, for example, like intelligence services, I would also be interested in this context, because we can also see in the current political debate that it might make sense if these services also gave our tips back to associations. But we as an association cannot represent that, we have to assume in the end that they do what they say. Is this exclusion enough or will there be further consequences? Take a closer look, did you maybe miss something in one or the other case? That's certainly different for many organizations, other associations take a closer look. We will do this as the Cyber Security Council of Germany-EV. We will have clear criteria for future admissions, but we will of course also take a closer look at how we can take a closer look at membership and where there may be a need for this. What role does Ahne Schömbum still play in a Cyber Security Council? You recently invited him as a keynote speaker, that was just under 4 weeks ago, was that my information session? Yes, that was an invitation to Ahne Schömbum, which of course he would first have to check. It's not like he's just dropping by after work and giving a talk. Something like that is checked and released by a responsible State Secretary Richter, so the Federal Ministry of the Interior checks something like that over a very, very long period of time. In some cases you can wait for weeks. And then they say that it's okay, he's allowed to speak there. And I suspect that if they had any reservations, they would not have given this release. How do you assess the political work and decision-making ability of Federal Minister Nancy Faeser in this context? We just have an agenda, cyber security, the name says agenda, that's not a strategy, that's what they're planning. I think we could have expected more from a new government. There is certainly more in it now than we ever had before. But the fact is that we do too little and we can see now that this possible decision to also remove the BSI President in this context now has a political aftertaste that one could say, for example, that this is not the first time that senior officials are removed after a change of government. Maybe they did a very good job, because, for example, he also had contact with Panthelion here. You've been a member since June 2020, which means that the BSI President can really not be blamed for anything here. And I suspect that the whole thing is less about the content here and more about politics and I would have wished that a political decision was made here instead of now looking for a scapegoat who is now supposed to be the BSI President and who is really not to blame for anything here. Let's take a closer look at the topic of cyber security, quite concretely, what influence does Russia still have now? Russia of course has the same ability as it is in the global context, to infiltrate systems relatively easily and that one notices this in the systems. This will now happen, there will be more and more needle pricks. Russia will of course also use this now because here you can cause a lot of damage covertly. For us, the exclusion means that the Russian secret services are involved in the German systems, that it is not only these needle pricks that are painful. We have been warning Germany for years as a cyber security council, and also warning Russia, to say that they are training in our systems. And that's the way it is. We have critical infrastructure, think of the thousand Stadtberg in Germany, the 2000 hospitals, they are highly vulnerable. And that is of course a great point of entry for foreign service, and of course also for the Russian aggressor. Maybe also in terms of reporting. The media and the public perception. How much transparency does the topic of cyber security actually tolerate? How can we now also regain trust without damaging ourselves or our predecessors? This is a very, very sensitive topic. Because here it is always about very, very much. Here it is also about people. Yes, in the end we are talking about systems in which people are sitting behind. And there it is always about intelligence, for example, how fucked up companies are with different actors. And this is not a very clear game, I always say. And of course these attacks are making use of this, because they know exactly that there is no coordination on one side. And in Germany we also see the diversity of different authorities and competencies. Says Hans Willi M. Dünnen, president of the Cyber Security Council Germany in VV. Thank you very much for the conversation.

Summarize it in 10 sentences

Hans Willi M. Dünnen, the president of Cyber-Sicherheitsrat Deutschland, is being interviewed. He discusses the recent expulsion of a member from the organization due to suspected ties to the Russian government. He also talks about the role of the organization and the importance of cyber security. He explains that the member was expelled after an investigation found possible evidence of backdoors in software that could be used by the Russian government. He also talks about the difficulty of investigating such claims and the importance of transparency in the cyber security field.

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Write a newspaper story based the text below, in 5 sentences:

Hans-Willi M. Dünnen, president of the Cyber-Security Council of Germany, has been working to increase transparency and communication around cyber security. In an interview with a local news outlet, Dünnen discusses the recent expulsion of a member organization from the council. This decision was made after allegations that the organization may have been involved in backdoor software activities that could be harmful to critical infrastructure. Dünnen stresses the importance of taking such allegations seriously and promises that the council will be conducting additional reviews to ensure similar situations do not arise in the future.

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Hans Willi M. Dünnen, president of the Cyber-Security Council of Germany, was recently interviewed on his views regarding Russian influence in German cyberspace. He stated that Russia has the ability to cause great harm by infiltrating systems and planting "backdoors" in software that could be used to spy on or sabotage critical infrastructure. However, he also said that it's difficult to know for sure whether or not this is happening, as there is no way to look into the code of Russian software without raising suspicion. As a result, the council has decided to err on the side of caution and expel Protéon from their organization. This comes after another recent incident where a top BSI official was forced to resign amid allegations of ties to Pantheon, a company with suspected links to Russia. When asked about these allegations, Dünnen said they are likely politically motivated rather than based on any concrete evidence. He went on to say that transparency is important when it comes to cyber-security, but that it is a sensitive issue as it can easily be used to exploit vulnerabilities.

Write a newspaper story based the text, in 10 sentences

Hans Willi M. Dünnen, president of the Cyber-Security Council of Germany, has been ousted* from the organization after an investigation into possible ties to Russia.

The council made the decision to expel Dünnen after being alerted by investigative journalists that there may be evidence that he was involved in backdooring software that could have been passed on to the Russian government. While the council cannot confirm these allegations at this time, they say they took immediate action when they were first brought to their attention on September 30th. Dünnen had only been a member of the council for two months and had only attended two events: the 10th anniversary celebration and an e-held summit. The council says there was no way for him to do any damage as a member. However, the council is taking no chances and has already begun to review its membership for any other possible risks. They say they will also be instituting new criteria for future members in order to avoid any repeat of this situation.

This incident highlights the delicate balance that must be struck between transparency and security when it comes to cyber-security. On one hand, the public needs to be aware of the dangers that exist in order to be able to protect themselves. On the other hand, too much information can be just as dangerous as too little.

It is a difficult tightrope to walk, but the council says they are committed to finding the right balance in order to protect both the public and those working to keep them safe.

* [Sic]

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Hans Willi M. Dünnen, president of the Cyber-Security Council of Germany, was recently interviewed on his views regarding Russia's influence in cyberspace. He stated that Russia has the ability to infiltrate systems relatively easily and undetected, and that they have been doing so for years. He went on to say that while this latest incident involving a possible backdoor in software may not be directly attributable to Russian intelligence agencies, it is likely that they are behind it. Dünnen also said that he believes the whole situation is being blown out of proportion for political reasons, and that the German government could be doing more to improve cyber security both domestically and internationally.

This comes as a surprise to many, as Dünnen has been an outspoken critic of the German government's lack of action on cyber security in the past. However, he seems to have softened his stance somewhat, saying that while more could be done, the current administration is at least taking some steps in the right direction.

It remains to be seen what, if any, effect this latest incident will have on Germany's relationship with Russia. However, it is clear that the issue of cyber security is only going to become more important in the years to come.

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Hans Willi M. Dünnen, the president of Cyber-Sicherheitsrat Deutschland, was recently interviewed on VV about the current state of cyber security in Germany and Russia's involvement. He begins by discussing the recent decision to expel a member from their organization after suspicious activity. Dünnen says that they received a tip from journalists that there may be "backdoors" in software being used by members which could be traced back to Russia. They took action immediately to investigate and found enough evidence for expulsion but he says that this does not mean Russian guilt has been proven. Dünnen says that it is difficult to know for sure what goes on behind the scenes of any organization, not just their own, and even harder to prove malicious intent. He notes that this may be a political move by the government rather than a security measure, as the member in question had only been with their organization for two events: the 10 year anniversary celebration and an E-Heldsabsetzung. Rün asks if this expulsion will lead to further consequences or if other members should be investigated and Dünnen responds saying they will take extra measures when considering new membership going forward but also investigate all current members more thoroughly. The interview ends with questions about Ahne Schömbum's role in Cyber-Sicherheitsrat Deutschland and whether his recent invitation was appropriate given the situation.

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Hans Willi M. Dünnen, the president of Cyber-Sicherheitsrat Deutschland, was recently interviewed on VV about Russia's continued influence in cyber security. He stated that Russian intelligence services are still active in German systems and that they are using this knowledge to their advantage. Additionally, he said thattransparency is key when it comes to cyber security so that the public can trust those who are working to protect them. Dünnen also said that the German government needs to do more to improve its cyber security infrastructure and policies.

This comes after the news that Cyber-Sicherheitsrat Deutschland has expelled one of its members, Protéon, over suspicions that they were involved in backdoor activities with Russia. Dünnen stated that they took this action to protect their organization and Its members, but that the expulsion does not mean that there is any confirmation of wrongdoing on Protéons part. He said that the investigation is ongoing and that they will be looking into all of their members to ensure that no one else is involved in similar activities.

This story highlights the importance of cyber security, both for individuals and organizations. It also shows how complex the issue can be, with different actors working at cross purposes.

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